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Gay marriage media bias?

April 5, 2013

To the editor: Has The Journal now joined the left wing media bias in support of gay marriage? Over a week has passed since the upper front page article on a couple’s lawsuit against CA’s Propositio......

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(238)

JReader

Apr-24-13 12:19 PM

So Michael, you then admit you are only doing this for your own benefit.

It's nice to finally get that out in the open.

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MichaelT

Apr-24-13 10:09 AM

Those for whom the message is intended are reading it.

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JReader

Apr-24-13 9:57 AM

Michael,

when you go up to your pulpit and preach on here everyone is going to leave. We are not members of your congregation. for me, I left when they passed the plate to me .... sheesh !!!

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MichaelT

Apr-24-13 8:46 AM

(Cont)

...The Bible holds out the same sort of evidence for the existence of God. In the Psalms it says, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork..." When I see the marvelous world around me, when I see the universe and all its wonders, I see there the visible evidence of the existence of an invisible Maker.

When we see a house, we know that somewhere in the past there was a house builder. We may not see him now, but we know he was there in the past. The Bible says, "Every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God." Very logical.

In the end, it isn't a matter of evidience vs. no evidence. After all, none of us was there when the universe began, and it's an event that can't be recreated. So it's a matter of faith, either way.

And it's a matter of will. Atheists do not WANT to believe there is a god. If they admitted there is a god, they would have to concern themselves with how He fits into their lives.

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MichaelT

Apr-24-13 8:31 AM

Ring2003: Sorry to hear you are exiting our discussion. It was just getting interesting.

To complete the thought I began with my last question, my belief in the existence of a God is supported by the same reasoning that you use to support the existence of an "innate moral compass." Neither can be seen. Neither has physical substance. You believe the inner moral compass exists because you see evidence of it all around you in the way people interact in society. The invisible thing must exist, because we can see its impact every day.

(Cont.)

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Ring2003

Apr-23-13 10:46 PM

Michael- some things that have evidence backing them are worthy of belief. In my opinion, there is no evidence of a god. And no, a book about a god is not evidence. That statement does not make me a better or worse person than you, as much as you would like to think otherwise.

You go right on believing you are more righteous and worthy of equal treatment under the law than others. And I hope you are someday repentant enough over how you have treated homosexuals to become a Christian again. Look at your last couple comments because according to you it sound like you are in trouble. And with that, I'm done.

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MichaelT

Apr-23-13 7:34 PM

Ring2003: So let me see if I am following your "moral compass" explanation. Are you saying that the reason you are sure that the moral compass exists is because you can see the evidence of its working in society? Even though you can't see the moral compass and even though it has no physical substance, you know that it exists because you can look around and see its impact on individuals and on society as a whole. Is that a fair representation of what you are saying?

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Ring2003

Apr-23-13 7:16 PM

Those individuals mentioned below that, according to Michael, are no longer Christians can repent and get back in the club, right? Meaning they can sin all they want, they just need to be sorry afterwards. That voids your argument Michael. Even you must see that.

Regarding the idea of a moral compass: Evolution of species points to the evidence that such a thing must exist. It is how species survive living in groups. Most humans (and most animals) don't attack members of their own group, hence the survival of their species. Believing something such as a moral compass exists is much different than believing all the animals lived within walking distance of the ark. Evidence vs. no evidence.

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svensota

Apr-23-13 12:00 PM

230 posts. Pretty soon The Journal is going to have to charge you guys rent.

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MichaelT

Apr-23-13 10:45 AM

Ring2003: I'll repeat my question from a bit earlier. I'd really like to hear the answer to this one:

Many atheists say that they will not believe in anything that they cannot observe or prove by scientific experimentation. That makes me wonder about this "innate moral compass" that you keep talking about. Why do you believe that this "innate moral compass" exists? Have you observed it? Can you point me to a scientific experiment that has proven that it exists?

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Zorromcgee

Apr-23-13 10:19 AM

MT to say that "A life of unrepentant sin is not consonent with Christian faith. It is, however, perfectly in line with atheism." this is your opinion. You can no more decide what is in line with any athiests thinking than you can decide who is a christian. I beleieve that is gods job, not yours. Hubris and hypocrisy do not serve you well. Humility and understanding may be christian concepts you may want to explore.

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MichaelT

Apr-23-13 9:59 AM

Unfortunately, many Christians are drawn in by the allurements that are all around us in this world, give in to their own corrupt desires, turn aside from a life of obedience to God and His will, and fall away from faith. This happens even in the case of men who have served as ministers of the gospel. Until they repent of their sin and return to the paths of righteousness, they are not Christians. The Bible says that they have "denied the faith."

A life of unrepentant sin is not consonent with Christian faith. It is, however, perfectly in line with atheism.

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Zorromcgee

Apr-23-13 9:24 AM

MT said "If you think a Christian may choose to live a life that is contrary to God's commands and still be a Christian, you are mistaken" SO then Jimmy Siggart, Jim Baker,Ted Haggard, Fred Phelps and Tony Alamo are not christians and you get to decide that? Every one lived contrary to god's commands and not only called themselves christian but were ordaines ministers of the gospel. So does god decide or do you decide if they are christian?

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MichaelT

Apr-23-13 9:13 AM

Ring2003: By the way, here's another question for you, which I'm sure you've probably heard before, so can easily answer:

Many atheists say that they will not believe in anything that they cannot observe or prove by scientific experimentation. That makes me wonder about this "innate moral compass" that you keep talking about. Why do you believe that this "innate moral compass" exists? Have you observed it? Can you point me to a scientific experiment that has proven that it exists? Just wondering.

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MichaelT

Apr-23-13 8:20 AM

Ring2003: You seem to think that there is no difference between atheism and Christianity when it comes to whether its adherents may choose to live a life centered only in self. Not true.

Though an adherent of atheism may choose to live a life of pure self-indulgence, and such a life is perfectly consonent with being an atheist (as you have now agreed is the case), a Christian may not.

If you think a Christian may choose to live a life that is contrary to God's commands and still be a Christian, you are mistaken. Christ paid the penalty for my sins. I believe that. I believe because God's Holy Spirit has changed my heart from one that rejects Christ to one that loves and trusts Him. That love and trust in Christ is what makes me a Christian. If a person lacks that love and trust in Christ, he is not a Christian, whether he calls himself one or not.

The life of a Christian is a life of striving to serve God and others. Imperfection remains, but service is the goal.

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Ring2003

Apr-23-13 7:59 AM

I've noticed you haven't answered the question of why Christians couldn't do the same thing- they are forgiven all their sins, right?

Here's your problem, Michael. You can't wrap your head around the fact that people can be good with or without god. Would acting with only self interest in mind conflict with being an atheist? No, but only because it has nothing to do with it. And a "no" answer does not mean atheists characteristically act this way. COULD atheists act self-indulgently? Sure. And some do. But so do many Christians. We are all humans, remember? Whatever you are trying to get at is beyond me. Keep up that pigeon dance.

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MichaelT

Apr-23-13 7:53 AM

Correction: "If an atheist were to decide to LIVE...etc."

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MichaelT

Apr-23-13 7:23 AM

Ring2003: Since I am such a simpleton, will you please give me a plain yes or no answer to the question I asked, so that I can understand it:

If an atheist were to decide to life only for himself and contribute nothing to society, would there be any conflict between that chosen lifestyle and his atheism?

Yes or no. A simple answer for a simple person. Please.

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Ring2003

Apr-23-13 7:08 AM

Michael, Michael, Michael...

Did you even read what I wrote? Your ridiculous question has been answered several times over.

And there is not ONE "Atheist Creed" that all atheists live by. If you actually read what you Googled you would have seen that you had discovered MANY various works with that title- some simple statements, some book-length. They are people's interpretation of what it means to be an atheist- most stating in some way the choice to believe in what can be proven and not what can't (and certainly not what can be dis-proven). But thank you anyway for telling me what I think and believe.

Having a discussion with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. A player makes a valid move while the pigeon just knocks the pieces over, poops on the board and does a victory dance. And so there is no confusion, you're the pigeon in this analogy.

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Zorromcgee

Apr-22-13 10:49 PM

MT said "I did not presume to know what is in the heart and mind of ANY PARTICULAR PERSON who identifies himself as an atheist." then he said "And since you have not answered my question about whether such a person's attitude is in conflict with atheism, I suppose I will have to assume that you see no conflict" now MT, even you have to admit that is hypocritical-if you like I can provide you a dictionary definition that is generally accepted. But to deny that you ae a hypocrite is to simply lie to yourself.

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MichaelT

Apr-22-13 10:26 PM

Ring2003: And since you have not answered my question about whether such a person's attitude is in conflict with atheism, I suppose I will have to assume that you see no conflict. Since, as you said, atheism does not dictate a moral code to anyone, it is perfectly logical to assume that a life of self-indulgence and pure selfishness is perfectly compatible with being an atheist. In fact, it would seem that non-belief in a god would invite such an attitude.

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MichaelT

Apr-22-13 10:20 PM

Ring2003: Now we're getting to the point of the ridiculous.

When one says, "I believe that there is no god," one is stating a belief.

When one says, "I believe that there is no afterlife," one is stating a belief.

To assert that atheism is not a belief system simply because it expresses its beliefs in negative terms rather than positive is nonsense. Atheism, like every other belief system, has basic tenets which are accepted by its adherents as a matter of faith.

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MichaelT

Apr-22-13 10:15 PM

Ring2003: "Atheism isn't a belief system." Really? Try googling "atheist creed" and see how many atheists don't agree with you.

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Ring2003

Apr-22-13 7:06 PM

And Michael, atheism isn't a belief system. There is not a manual to consult to see if you are in compliance or not with being a good atheist. It is simply a NON-BELIEF in a deity. That's it. Haven't we been over that already?

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Ring2003

Apr-22-13 7:02 PM

Michael- If an atheist chooses to act as you are describing in your previous post I would venture to guess he/she would be in prison. What if a Christian said, "It doesn't matter what I do because as long as I repent I'm forgiven"?. What stops a Christian from doing that? I would be willing to bet the same thing that stops an atheist from being a bad person too. People have internal moral compasses. If you choose to believe yours is because of religion, knock yourself out. My moral compass is intact and religion has nothing to do with it. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

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